In this fourth episode of the Beyond-Print series of podcasts, Bernd Zipper gets to the bottom of the current puzzle of the printing industry. He examines what lies behind Zaikio and how it relates to Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG and Crispy Mountain. He doesn’t simply ask anyone if they’ve heard anything, but rather directly researches with the people involved. Christian Weyer (Co-Managing Director at Zaikio), Jürgen Grimm (Head of Ecosystems Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG) and Rainer Hundsdörfer (CEO of Heidelberger Druckmaschinen AG) were on hand to answer questions and explain which paradigms need to be changed in the supplier industry and print shops.
Read a shorter version of the interview here, a longer one in beyondprint unplugged or listen to the full-length interview in the podcast on zippers insights or Spotify.
Bernd Zipper: What should I imagine in a nutshell as Zaikio?
Christian Weyer: The printing industry is under considerable cost pressure. Efficiency can be improved through digitization and automation. For automation, I have to network all processes in the value chain, all machines, all software, the people and all partners of the print shop. Zaikio provides the software products for this networking.
Bernd Zipper: Good, that’s what others have told me.
Christian Weyer: Yes, but we have a holistic approach. We network the various components. Today, a print shop has many different software products in use, but they generally communicate with each other rather poorly. With Zaikio, we want to create a platform that addresses precisely this communication together with the manufacturers of the different software packages and ensures that the software talks to each other without the printer having to actively take care of it. He should be able to have the components talking to each other with just one click. This gives the printer a basis on which they can easily automate and digitize. But we are not a Management Information System (MIS).
Bernd Zipper: Every classic IT specialist in the print industry is becoming increasingly skeptical now because he or she has heard this a few times before. Keyline still exists, isn’t that part of the ecosystem?
Rainer Hundsdörfer: I would like to start at a somewhat higher level. How do Zaikio, Keyline, Prinect and all the other things play into this? Heidelberg concentrates on its core business, printing sheets from data to the finished print product. We want to offer our customers everything: the necessary machines, the necessary software, all consumables, all services. We can’t do that alone. If we are serious about making customers, who essentially work with us, more successful than those who don’t, then we have to think ahead. And then you very quickly arrive at a platform that will only work if it really creates added value for the customer and not for Heidelberg. That’s exactly the idea behind saying, “Let’s find a way to enable our customers to increase their productivity and efficiency by having everything they do run on one and the same platform”. To do this, I need other machine manufacturers, other software vendors, other suppliers of services or of consumables.
Bernd Zipper: So we are talking about an infrastructure platform, an ecosystem in which the IT specialist can integrate several plug-ins or applications that do not come from Heidelberg or Zaikio.
Christian Weyer: Absolutely, yes.
Bernd Zipper: To ensure that the printer has the infrastructure to survive in this data madness.
Christian Weyer: In various projects, we actually use Keyline only as a data hub. We thought this through and came up with a platform relatively quickly. We realized that you can’t do that as a small company, because it’s not only a technological problem, you also have to talk to a lot of partners. This was the driving force behind our decision to say: “We need a strong partner here who brings a lot of knowledge to the printing process, from which we can benefit, but who also lets us act as a start-up.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: We have recognized that a closed Heidelberg world does not work when it comes to setting up a platform. A platform only works if it is accessible to everyone and subject to the same rules. We believe that we differentiate ourselves sufficiently with the services, with the machines, with the products, everything we can offer the customer. In that case I don’t need a closed platform. This is definitely a paradigm shift for Heidelberg.
Bernd Zipper: Can start-ups and Heidelberg now work together?
Jürgen Grimm: Yes, it is going very well. And as always, when things go well, it’s mainly because we get on well with each other personally. We have the full backing of the Heidelberg top management. Furthermore, the definition is incredibly important. We are talking about a platform that can be built. An ecosystem must be created. A very satisfying dynamic has developed between the start-up developers and our established software developers. The entire industry is moving from On-Premise Software to Cloud Software. But cloud software will not replace on-premise software from tomorrow and therefore: A very big core element of Zaikio is the possibility to network all software systems. Regardless of whether they are On-Premise or in the Cloud.
Bernd Zipper: And that already works?
Jürgen Grimm: It is already working very well. We have networked the first On-Premise systems. That is a huge step. Today the integration effort is always with the individual customer in the direct combination of the software. We are partially solving the problem by only having to network the On-Premise software with the cloud.
Christian Weyer: Everything can be networked if resources such as time and money are not an issue. The problem is that networking in the printing industry today is not scalable. The printer is responsible for the integration project. He has to pay for it, he has to budget time and he has to coordinate several partners. That doesn’t work and is not the printer’s job. We take care of it. If you want to network software A and B with each other, then we talk to the manufacturer of software A and software B. They can build that into their products in such a way that it works for each of their customers. We make it scalable and that’s new.
Jürgen Grimm: Of course, that only works if it is open to all parties involved. It eliminates the demarcation from the MIS. We offer a networking option for the existing MIS. Changing a MIS is like open heart surgery. It is not necessary. We can drive the gradual integration on another level without replacing the MIS. We can drive it forward with the right openness, with the other partners, without replacing the press. This is where Zaikio comes up against a gap that is currently not filled.
Bernd Zipper: However, what I still have in mind is that Crispy Mountain, i.e. Zaikio, has its expertise in logistics, customs software and similar solutions. And then you made Keyline for the printing industry. With my team, the question came up immediately: If they are so smart and so brilliant, why are they going into the printing industry? You can earn a lot more money elsewhere.
Christian Weyer: Of course, we came to the printing industry by chance. The printing industry produces a volume of around 420 billion Euro each worldwide. The market is not small. So, it’s not true that you can’t earn money in the printing industry. I belong to the Millennials. It is important to me that my work has a purpose and that it is not just about making money. We have a tradition of craftsmanship, and in Germany craftsmanship and software can be combined better than in any other country in the world. The Americans are showing us an incredible amount in terms of start-up and venture capital. But they don’t have this craft component in them. I believe that if we manage to combine mechanical engineering with good software in Germany, we will have an incredible market position again. For me, it’s great that I program something and, in the evening,, I can watch a book emerging from a production line. The data for the book has gone through our software. That makes me incredibly proud and that’s why I find the printing industry so interesting.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: I would like to add something else: Mechanical engineering is the leading industry in Germany. I would say that it is even better positioned at the moment than our flagship or former flagship automotive industry. Printing presses are the pinnacle of mechanical engineering. There is only Germany, a little bit of Japan and the rest of the world is left out. The printing industry is very interesting because you create a product with data. In between are many digitized processes, but they are not sufficiently networked. This is exactly where such a platform comes in.
Bernd Zipper: Now I ask myself: “Wait a minute, Heidelberg products have just been discontinued. There is hardly anything new in sight and we are talking about software. How can that work together?
Rainer Hundsdörfer: There is hardly any other mechanical engineering company that is as successful on the market as Heidelberg. We have a market share of around 70% in Germany, 45% in the world, over 50% in China and even 25% on a sustained basis in Japan. That is one side of the coin. But we also have to be economically successful in the long term, and we have not always been able to achieve this. But what do we need to do differently so that we are not just the number one machine supplier? How do we get the other stakeholders – shareholders and owners – to enjoy our products? We can do this by making our customers even more successful, so that they do even more business with us and we can ultimately bring our profitability to a level that is pleasing for all concerned.
Bernd Zipper: In other words, you could say it’s all about the operating system for the ecosystem. At the same time there is a lot of old software, what happens to it?
Jürgen Grimm: Prinect is by far the most successful system for On-Premise Networking available today. We know what it means to do this on site, customer by customer. And the Prinect functions are still needed. In the print shop process, for example, I will still have to carry out impositioning. But do I have to install impositioning software locally in every print shop, or is there not a change in technology to be expected by going to the cloud? Now I have to ask myself: do I want to work with cloud-based software in the same way as I currently work with On-Premise-based software? Let’s stick to imposition. In the cloud I see the full range of functions that our Signa Station offers, ideally without a user interface. Why should someone set trim marks manually? I think that’s the step that we support with Zaikio. It’s not the claim to convert everyone to using only Heidelberg presses and Heidelberg software.
Bernd Zipper: The Signa Station came on the market around 2001. This is actually a software classic.
Jürgen Grimm: Of course, it has been further developed, but the basic philosophy, which is currently inherent in prepress solutions, is that every user can decide how he wants to solve a problem. You can create a result in many different ways. But we are now living in an age where algorithms can be used to take repetitive work away from people and give them room for activities that really add value. I believe that the printing industry has not yet exhausted this step. It is not a problem of artificial intelligence. It is a problem of systems not being networked and the rules of the game being unclear. And that’s where a major paradigm shift will take place.
Bernd Zipper: For years, we have been saying that JDF is the thing. Recently however, with those who were smart enough to attend the Online Print Symposium, a representative from Heidelberg said for the first time: “We need more”.
Jürgen Grimm: I believe that we need to clarify what JDF has achieved. JDF is a wonderful definition of the term. Thanks to JDF, all manufacturers talk about the same process step in the same words. What JDF has not achieved is a real data exchange format, partly because there was never a product, never an interface to work towards. JDF is the basis for making On-Premise networking possible at all. But it is not clear and limited enough to enable automated networking. JDF is the foundation on which an open API can work with a unified data model like the one Zaikio offers.
Christian Weyer: You have to see the background. When the technology started, the Internet looked very different than today. Back then, nobody thought about such networking stories as we do today off the cuff. Today’s requirements are different, especially the architectures, how to build networks and how to do messaging in networks have changed fundamentally. JDF has not aged particularly well in this area.
Bernd Zipper: Anyone can participate. How many have already placed calls?
Jürgen Grimm: The interest is very high because the necessity is recognized.
Christian Weyer: It’s not a question of who can participate, but rather who must participate so that we can be successful together. It is absolutely clear to everyone involved: we cannot let others participate, is being interpreted the wrong way round. We are the petitioners here and we ask others: “Do you want to participate?
Rainer Hundsdörfer: It is a paradigm shift not only for Heidelberg, but for the entire industry. We have already talked to many in the supplier industry. It will take a while before they dare to participate. Everyone sees the necessity. Now the question is: Will they manage the paradigm shift? That won’t happen overnight. I would like to be able to say: “All the major players from the entire industry are already on board”. That is not yet the case.
Jürgen Grimm: We deliberately did not want to start with a pure concept. Instead, we said we would go to the partners when we could already show a little bit internally. We wanted to be able to initiate a commercial discussion with a partner and say directly “Here is the technology, and you can try it out next week with your tech team”. Zaikio.com is open. You can sign up and there you can vote which are the preferred and most important partners. This gives us the opportunity to test a little bit what has priority. The registration numbers are very encouraging, and the trends are very clear. We can say “Okay, we have to get these and those”, but for the partner meeting it is important to be able to say “Look, so many people have already registered and so many people want you specifically on the platform”. When the time is right, we will announce who is going to be there.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: It is a process that takes time. We know that from our own experience. We know what a demanding process it is to get this into people’s heads. It is a complete reversal of the Heidelberg way of thinking. Our competitors will be the same.
Bernd Zipper: If I can’t move the tanker, then I have to give the tanker incentives for it to learn how to move. For me the question is: Can this small unit generate enough momentum?
Jürgen Grimm: Compulsion never works. Personal exchange, getting to know someone and convincing them is the better way. If people say, “You’re on the wrong track”, it’s because we haven’t explained it well enough. Then we explain it again. There will always be people who reject a new way for different reasons.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: We have to listen and ask: “Why do you think that this is not the right way? That way you will find answers very quickly. Maybe it is possible to do one or the other thing better than it is currently being considered.
Jürgen Grimm: I think the combination of a large company and a start-up, if you let both have their identity, is the promising point. After all, as a pure start-up you won’t scale up on your own, and on the other hand we won’t have enough impetus from within the Group. That is the winning combination.
Christian Weyer: That answers the question of what we are actually doing at the moment and why we do not announce new partners every day. We develop software in an agile way, which means that we first have to discuss with the partners: “What are your requirements, what are your problems? I mean partners in the sense of software vendors, machine manufacturers, suppliers or dealers and the printer, of course. Most importantly, he is the central figure. In our keyline history, we have spoken extensively with printers. But I have never had as many conversations as I did last year. I wanted to get a feeling for it: “What are your problems, what is bothering you in your everyday life, what do you want to improve through digitalization? This listening and then developing the software in the right direction simply takes time. But that is time well invested, because otherwise you build a product that no one uses in the end.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: We have tried to learn from successful and unsuccessful industrial platforms. Why were they not successful? One clear conclusion we came to is that a platform and a machine builder do not fit together. What we can do is software that is directly related to our machines and our processes, and the whole “push to stop” philosophy is part of that. Attempts of industrial platforms in other industries have partially not been able to establish themselves. There are prominent examples. That was one of the reasons why we said, “No, we have to think differently, we shouldn’t make the same mistake as other well-known mechanical engineering companies in other industries, who then quietly put a stop to it”. I think it’s exactly the right approach to say: “Yes, I need people for this, I need a team that really lives and understands the platform idea”. We are allowed to take part in it and map our business processes to it, and then use it to enter a different world. This is important because we still live off the fact that we build the best machines. Software alone won’t solve it, but the machines still have to produce outstanding print at the end of the day, and do so cost-effectively, quickly and flexibly. The fact that the networking of the whole process is on a different level is complementary and not a contradiction.
Bernd Zipper: I agree with that. The Beyond Print readers and listeners know my opinion: “We need platforms, we need to network, we need to make sure that we are ready for new technologies such as robotics and artificial intelligence.”. What is developing? You have to have trust. Heidelberg is in a critical situation, even if they say “We are on the right track”. I agree with them too. If you want to have trust, you have to create the basis for it. Crispy Mountain is no longer called that. There is the Heidelberg Digital Unit (HDU) and now Digital Platforms is called Ecosystem. Or is that something else again? Then the start-up ventures were founded at the same time. If a printer takes a close look at who is on the road everywhere, how can this be combined with trust? I no longer know: Who is my partner? Who do I have to trust?
Rainer Hundsdörfer: The Heidelberg Digital Unit is our think tank with regard to the emergence of new digital business models. Which business models we then operate via the platform has nothing to do with the platform for the time being. Just as Heidelberg will conduct its business via the Zaikio platform in the future, so can others. That is the idea of a platform. Let’s start with that, but the most important thing for me is to say something about trust. Why are we doing this anyway? Because I believe that the partner with the greatest trust in the print industry is still Heidelberg. With all the difficulties we’ve had to overcome in recent years, it’s our customers who have felt it the least. Our customers are our greatest asset.
Bernd Zipper: It may be new for me as a printer that all of a sudden I’m not just buying something to put in my cabinet and write on my balance sheet, but rather all of a sudden I have to rent something, have to pay-per-views or something else. Then I look at it and don’t know with whom I am doing business?
Jürgen Grimm: We mediate. If a printer subscribes to any software via our platform, the printer’s business partner is the software manufacturer. We just handle the payment.
Bernd Zipper: I still have to rent the platform.
Jürgen Grimm: The platform does not have to be rented. The printer can use these functions for free.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: The platform pays Heidelberg and all the partners who are involved. We use it to provide our services. No Heidelberg customer today pays for the infrastructure directly, but indirectly by paying for our products and services. The same is exactly the case here.
Jürgen Grimm: A platform is not a product. I can’t sell a platform to a customer because that’s pure infrastructure. The customer gets nothing out of that. The platform lives from the products and services that are offered through it. That is the model. The Zaikio account is free of charge. Of course, we have a value-added model behind it.
Bernd Zipper: Do you have your own cloud that I can use?
Jürgen Grimm: Zaikio provides an infrastructure for networking. We don’t operate any servers ourselves, but lease cloud services. The contractual partner in the transaction business is always the provider. If I use software to network a machine with another software system, let’s say I keep my MIS, then my contractual partner is still the MIS provider. Zaikio provides the infrastructure, but does not bill the printer for this infrastructure, but the infrastructure user, i.e. the manufacturer. This is the basic principle of the contractual partnership. Of course, Zaikio has to hold and transmit data temporarily. But Zaikio does not store any data. That would be another software provider offering an archive, for example. They would then hold the data and the contract partner operating the archive would be there. Of course, we have to comply with all data protection guidelines. Sometimes it feels as if we have as much legal development effort as we have technical effort. First of all, a digital product knows no boundaries, the boundaries are defined by legal areas. And that’s actually a matter that we are right in the middle of.
Bernd Zipper: “We are democratizing” means that as a printer I have expectations. We have many printers who know what they are doing and have their own ideas. But there are many who are just about to make the leap over the wall.
Jürgen Grimm: We have the classic problem that every platform operator has: Our user is not our customer in the monetary sense. In other words, if the printer is not our customer but only our user, everything on the platform is designed to ensure that the printer is in control of where its data is going at all times. That is important to us. This is actually the cornerstone of the platform’s authentication system, to put it in technical terms. We operate the whole thing on Amazon Web Services (AWS) in Frankfurt. There we have our own Virtual Private Cluster. So that’s another separate cloud in which only we run. You cannot go for much more security. And of course, we always try our best to make it as secure as possible.
Bernd Zipper: We have applications out there in the market, I have an e-commerce system, a web-to-print editor, imposition software, a home-made workflow and then I have something that a developer friend of mine once made for me. I still have an MIS somewhere in the back. It’s almost impossible to connect them together. We need a Tube system, a system that hangs in between or at least offers a standardized API so that programs can talk to each other.
Jürgen Grimm: Exactly, because of the standardization I have the advantage that every provider only needs to learn one API, namely ours and not countless APIs, i.e. those of all the others. But technically, as we are talking about the slogan “Let’s democratize the printing industry”, apps can communicate directly with each other via our system. We are not forcing anyone to go through the Zaikio products. We just say, “If you do that, then it will of course be much easier for you as a software vendor”.
Bernd Zipper: Technically, I don’t want to go that deep here. This is not a commercial break, but I think it is the appropriate way to go, especially because we will still have some work to do in terms of data transfer. We need automated procedures where data can be released. Anyone who still thinks he would only produce in his local neighborhood has not yet grasped the whole issue of online printing. But we have a really precarious situation at the moment. We have a lot of printers; they have other things to worry about. So how do you get the hang of this topic?
Rainer Hundsdörfer: We can see that our printers are thinking about the right things. Everyone is more or less aware of the situation, and we’ll be living with it for a while yet. How do you deal with it? A small example: I visited one of our customers in Holland last week. What does he do? He is investing, he says: “I want to be finished when business picks up again”. Here we not only have the opportunity to sell new machines, but also to establish new processes. That’s exactly where we are at Zaikio. There are winners in the crisis who are open to the topic. Then there are those who have been hit hard, but who have a plan. They are healthy and can invest. They say: “I’m using this time, when I’m missing 10 or 15 percent of sales, to reposition myself”. And then there are of course those who will not survive. A virus does not change the world, but it is a catalyst that drives change. Maybe even good, because we see structural change accelerating and that’s better than dragging on forever. That’s why when I come to Heidelberg now, I’m relatively optimistic. We have been seeing business improve for a few months now. July was already quite a good month. August was not bad. In September, we expect to slowly recover again. Business is back to a level that allows our industry to invest in the future and do new things. It is not just a matter of adjusting capacities and streamlining the product portfolio, but of establishing completely new management structures and a new way of thinking in the company.
Jürgen Grimm: I believe that the transformation towards more digital, which is now accelerating, can only accommodate a purely digital product like Zaikio. In some cases, people now have more time to deal with it. In other words, if I offer this via a website, the time budget that people currently have for this is perhaps even greater than if there were no crisis.
Christian Weyer: I think this is a very, very important point. The biggest enemy of MIS implementation in the print shop has always been day-to-day business. That applies to considerations like: What does the future look like? As paradoxical as it may be, the crisis has given many printers the opportunity to take their time to reflect: Where are we headed? That was the same for us. We were able to completely isolate ourselves in February, March, and April and only worked on the product. When do you ever have such an opportunity? That brought us closer to our goal much faster than we had originally planned. Many printers have now realized for the first time that working remotely works well. An awareness has definitely matured among printers that “I need software systems that can be accessed from anywhere”. It’s hard to set up the Speedmaster in your living room. That is absolutely clear. But there are a lot of jobs in the print shop that you can do from home with flexible working hours. When we see that the printing industry is fighting for new blood, then these are positive arguments. Flexible working hours and other working time models. The software must now follow suit.
Bernd Zipper: What will the working environment of a printer look like in the future? I find that very exciting, especially when you talk to young people for whom sustainability is important and who have a strong family background. Where is that going? We need acceptance within the industry. Is there a plan B if that doesn’t work?
Christian Weyer: If you work with a plan B, you don’t invest enough energy in plan A. You have to work on your goal and you’ve already said it correctly, it’s not a technical challenge. The technologies we use here are 10, 15 years old. The challenge is to understand where the requirements of the people involved lie and then solve these problems. Then it will sell. I’m not worried about that. The experience of the last five keyline years has been that the attitude of the industry has changed massively. Whereas five years ago it was sometimes difficult to sell a cloud-based product, that is simply no longer an issue today. On the contrary, it is even perceived as positive, in some cases it is even a prerequisite. I am convinced of this thought: Someone will do it, if we don’t succeed, someone else will, which of course I do not hope. I hope that we can be faster.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: We wouldn’t do it if we needed a Plan B. We are firmly convinced that this is the right way. Today, I don’t know whether the way we are going down this path is the right one. But that is agility. We start, and we adapt and do it until it works. That is something completely different for our typically classic, German, conservative mechanical engineering world. To say in the event of fault tolerance: “We try it out, just see what works and then adapt it. The classic way of planning something from start to finish, with a maturity process, does not work in such a software world.
Bernd Zipper: In summary, it is a platform. For example, I can use this platform for my store, Keyline or Prinect. So, I call you, Mr. Grimm, you come by and we talk about it or how does that work?
Jürgen Grimm: As a partner, of course. You have to talk about what fits together in what way. We already do that with a relatively large number of partners. And then it’s really quite fast, hands-on, practical integration work on the API. Because: We can talk about it at length and exchange specifications. The best test is still, do I send the data, does the data arrive? And then I follow this exchange format.
Bernd Zipper: Heidelberg has another topic here. There are the seasoned machine salespeople, who in 80 percent of all cases have direct contact with the customer. Can they sell Zaikio?
Jürgen Grimm: You don’t have to. Zaikio is not a product that you have to sell. That doesn’t follow the logic of Heidelberg Germany, Heidelberg Switzerland and so on. Whatever Heidelberg software is running on it can be sold, and then it works once again. If we were to say that we are forcing a purely digital product into the established regional sales structures, we would be doing neither the sales structure any favors nor the digital products. This is exactly the point where Mr. Hundsdörfer says: The idea is not only in the development; the idea is in the whole approach. Ideally, a software competitor sells Zaikio, a store provider or an MIS provider promotes it to its customers. We want to solve the problem on site. Everyday life: How do I get my data from a webshop and an MIS together? We don’t want to take the business away from the store software or the MIS. We want to solve the integration problem.
Christian Weyer: We operate very much in the background there, and that’s okay. The end customer doesn’t have to get up in the morning and see Zaikio everywhere, but he has to get to work on his production workflow and it has to work. We are a basis. We have a topic that we haven’t even talked about yet: In the procurement area, we also network the dealers and manufacturers of consumer goods, i.e. paper, ink, and so on, with the printers’ MIS. Here too: We are not building a Web store. I don’t go to ‘store.zaikio.com’ and buy something there, but we are the data hub that ensures that I have up-to-date price lists directly in the purchasing module of my MIS system. I don’t have to import a CSV file anymore; it works through the interface.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: I am convinced that we will manage that. Some suppliers of paint or something else will say: “You can do business with me, but please only via the Zaikio platform. If you’re not there yet then please go there, get your systems on there, and I can do business with you automatically”. That’s the idea, so it’s a bit like an avalanche. It has to start small first. But it will gain speed. We create a benefit for our customers. Then everyone who doesn’t use this platform will be at a disadvantage because the customer will want the convenience. These are the same people who use digital products in normal life. And why? Because they are so convenient and pleasant. The opportunity is the same here.
Bernd Zipper: In other words, that is part of the business model, for the company to develop and enhance the products, and to receive commissions in between.
Christian Weyer: By digitizing the process end-to-end, we are creating a digital dividend. Be it time, be it money, be it resources. Our task as a platform is to distribute this dividend to all players. And of course, it is in our legitimate interest as a platform to keep a small part of this dividend on our platform.
Rainer Hundsdörfer: Last but not least, for the supplier: If I can handle my business relationship with my customer automatically, then that saves on sales expenses. That is then a benefit for both sides.
Bernd Zipper: That’s a cool conclusion! I still have to give a hint: Of course, this interview may contain traces of nuts and promotion, but that is pretty normal. I would like to thank everyone involved for their time and open answers. It will be exciting to see. Good luck!
